Jennie Mårtensson interviews Petra Wille, a renowned product leadership coach and author of Strong Product People and Strong Product Communities. Petra shares her insights on why being a product manager is one of the most exciting jobs, drawing from her extensive experience across various industries. She discusses the key elements of building a strong product culture, including leadership behavior, feedback loops, and fostering an environment where learning from both successes and failures is encouraged. Petra also delves into the concept of a product operating model, emphasizing the need for flexibility and adaptability in different organizational contexts.
In this conversation, she previews her upcoming session in the Leading Complexity program, where participants can ask their burning questions and explore the challenges of product leadership. Don’t miss this engaging discussion!
As the program is nearly halfway through, we’re offering anyone interested in Petra Wille and all the other fantastic speakers a chance to join at half the price. Use the code HALFWAY when registering at https://leadingcomplexity.com/.
You’ll still have access to all past sessions from this year’s program, as well as most sessions from previous years.
Transcription (ish)
Petra: Hi! So good to be here with you.
Jennie: Yay, so good to be here with you, too.
Jennie: We’re so excited that you’ll be joining the Leading Complexity program this fall.
Petra: Me too, me too.
Jennie: You’re a sought-after product leadership coach, a speaker, the author of two books, Strong Product People and Strong Product Communities, and one of the co-organizers of the popular conference Product at Heart in Hamburg.
Petra: Yes, that’s right!
Jennie: It always sells out, so you have to be quick to get tickets. They’re already on sale, so now’s the time.
Jennie: I should book for next year then?
Petra: Yes, you could!
Jennie: On your website, you say that being a product manager is the best job on the planet. What makes you feel that way?
Petra: I’ve been a product person for so many years, and I’ve always loved it. When I moved into freelancing and consulting, I loved it even more. You get to see so many industries—container shipping, e-commerce, social networking, B2C, B2B. You learn so much about the world and how it works through all these engagements. Product people have to dig deep, understand processes, and be able to optimize them. We get to work with the latest technology and, in a way, shape the future with the software we create. Not many people get to say that. I’m still excited about product management, even if I don’t do it every day in my role as a coach. But you could even say the conference is a product in itself, so I apply those skills there too.
Jennie: I can tell you still love it!
Petra: Absolutely.
Jennie: And your two books are invaluable handbooks for building product focus and strong product leadership. In your words, what defines a strong product culture?
Petra: That’s a tricky one because it touches on so many things. For example, leadership behavior is crucial. As a leader, you model behavior for the organization. Then, it’s about what gets recognized and rewarded, creating an environment where people feel safe to share what they’ve learned—even when things didn’t go as planned. That could involve communities of practice. Is there a safe space to share experiences, even failures? Those aspects are all part of the culture. Then there are rituals, celebrations, and how people interact with each other. How people talk in meetings, whether feedback is given and encouraged, how it flows—top-down, bottom-up, or laterally. Onboarding, orientation, and upskilling also play a part in shaping product culture.
At its core, product management is about balancing four forces: building something valuable for the user, making sure it’s viable for the company, ensuring it’s technically feasible with the available team, and making it usable without requiring a huge manual. Balancing these forces is the heart of product management. Some call it product discovery and delivery, but it’s about creating that mindset as part of the culture.
Jennie: The culture you’re describing is so important.
Petra: Yes, it really is. That’s why I often have this conversation with my clients when they’re hiring. I ask them to think about the culture they want six months or a year down the line, and then consider what qualities new hires need to bring. I call it hiring for cultural add. It’s not just about fitting in, but about bringing something new to the table. But to do that, you need a baseline of your current culture: what’s rewarded, how things are done, how goal setting and directional clarity are provided. Culture is a bit like water for fish—if you ask a fish about water, it can’t describe it because it’s always immersed in it. Culture is the same; it’s always around us, so taking time to reflect on it is valuable. As a leader, you can help shape it.
Jennie: I love that we can design culture, even if just to some extent.
Petra: Yes, exactly.
Jennie: So, there are a lot of trends in the business world right now. One buzzword we keep hearing is the product operating model. How would you describe it, and what are your thoughts on its importance?
Petra: Every company has one, at least if they’re able to deliver software to users. If not, the company wouldn’t last long. But if you’re operational enough to deliver a product, you have a product operating model, even if it’s implicit. If I interviewed your organization about how you build products, people might say, “We gather, we meet, we have conversations, we code, we ship it.” There’s always some underlying process, even if it’s not formal. It’s often more than just a process; it’s also rituals, regular meetings, and decision-making patterns.
When an organization grows, these things need to be written down. The simplest version of a product operating model might just be task boards, showing the steps a product takes from idea to delivery. Over time, organizations might add steps for discovery, validation, and so on. Having a lightweight, adaptable model written down is helpful, so everyone can see where they are in the process. I’m not a fan of rigid models that say, “Use jobs to be done here, and only that,” because it’s too restrictive. The model should help people orient themselves without being overly prescriptive.
Jennie: I like that you emphasized adapting the model to the context and maturity of the organization.
Petra: Yes, exactly. A model should mature with the organization. Experienced leaders often bring their own models, which is why companies sometimes need to adjust their ways of working when they bring in new leadership.
Jennie: For your session in the program, what can participants expect?
Petra: I’m really excited because we agreed to make it a Q&A session, almost like a fireside chat. This isn’t about me giving a talk; we want to give the audience a chance to ask any questions they have. There’s no question too basic—especially in leadership roles, people may come from marketing or business backgrounds and feel shy about asking fundamental questions. In this session, they should feel free to ask anything. We’ll touch on topics like product culture, creating an environment for constant learning, psychological safety, and what people can expect from a product leader. We’ll frame it a bit with some initial questions but keep it open to explore what participants bring.
Jennie: Yay, I’m so looking forward to this! And we’ll meet on December 5th?
Petra: Yes, December 5th. Looking forward to it too. Bring your questions!
